project mojave blog - Latest Comments in Productivity Guru SMACKDOWN: Tim Ferriss v. Dave Allen

Re: Productivity Guru SMACKDOWN: Tim Ferriss v. Dave Allen

Malcolm Bastien — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:04:43 -0000

Definitely found GTD complicated enough to understand in its entirety I give you that. I have 4HWW sitting on my desk that I'm lining up to read, but it seems people on the other side of 4HWW are living the life compared to those on the other side of GTD.

Re: Productivity Guru SMACKDOWN: Tim Ferriss v. Dave Allen

Risky — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 01:12:13 -0000

What happened to my previous post? Clay - any answers?

Anyways, Great article again Clay and excellent comments. I liked the book 'Four Hour Work Week' but haven't read GTD.

What I took out of FHWW is:

What exactly am I making money for?

And I came up with this quote:-

"Grateful are those who see life in its simplicity, whose thoughts are not diluted through pop assumptions & social norms propagated through t.v, movies and media". - Risky 2008

Re: Productivity Guru SMACKDOWN: Tim Ferriss v. Dave Allen

Mike — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 07:07:52 -0000

I've read both GTD and 4HWW. my point of view on them is that they work VERY well together.

GTD tells you how to manage your desired responsibilities, and 4HWW tells you how to minimize and/or get rid of your undesired responsibilities. this is VERY useful.

for example, if you want to be one of the world's best at something. you will have to spend thousands of hours perfecting your craft and you have to make sure that each hour is well spent.

Each system (you) has a point where the productivity factor (dave) and the effectivity factor (tim) achieve optimal output.

Re: Productivity Guru SMACKDOWN: Tim Ferriss v. Dave Allen

Risky — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 04:24:33 -0000

I agree with all regarding "Clay, great article - good work man" I also want to thank everyone for their comments, it truly does open these type of books up and relaxes thought about do do do, why not just be. Do we have to 'Do' to just

Re: Productivity Guru SMACKDOWN: Tim Ferriss v. Dave Allen

Nick — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 21:18:40 -0000

Great article. I haven't read GTD yet, but the 4HWW helped me quite my job and move to a tropical island. So the quite your job part is quite accurate.

Re: Productivity Guru SMACKDOWN: Tim Ferriss v. Dave Allen

Minnesota Magician — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 00:46:52 -0000

Great summary of the core concepts of both books. I have to agree with the verdict too: I learned a few useful concepts from GTD, but 4HW changed the way I look at life and work.

Very nice article.

Re: Productivity Guru SMACKDOWN: Tim Ferriss v. Dave Allen

Billy Gallagher — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 15:24:38 -0000

Definitely a well written article and the timing was perfect for me as a moderate user of GTD and have just started reading 4HWW. I give credit to both for encouraging people to work smarter instead of harder. There are always new and better ways to accomplish something.

4HWW concept on outsourcing is valid in our society. In many ways, people use this and don't realize it. Just ask yourself when was the last time you harvested your own crops, cut wood down to build your own house, or built your own computer from raw materials? We don't do this anymore because we find the time required is not worth the effort, I think Tim takes this to a whole new level that is relevant in today's society.

Re: Productivity Guru SMACKDOWN: Tim Ferriss v. Dave Allen

Tim — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 10:22:58 -0000

Never really got into GTD, but I just finished reading 4HWW. And in my opinion, I prefer the 4HWW.

Why ??? Well.... why would I want to do everything on the list ???? It just takes too much time to do everything. I jut prefer to be selective and ignore some other stuff. Works fine and I get more and more free time to hang out with my family.

A nice change of lifestyle where I used to be doing everything and working loads and loads. Sometimes even with the idea that I loved to work crazy hours. Which I know realise was stupid. But hitting the wall one day made me think about priorities in life and some of the "guidelines" Tim Ferris writes about, I figured out already before I read the book....

Re: Productivity Guru SMACKDOWN: Tim Ferriss v. Dave Allen

Diana Long — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:53:48 -0000

Hi Clay,
You did a great job highlighting both approaches. I am a fan of both David & Tim's work, bottom line is do what you love, express your core genius and outsource or delete the rest. I've done a considerable amount of eliminating unnecessary meetings, memberships, etc etc lately and I feel so FREE :)
Great article,thanks!

Re: Productivity Guru SMACKDOWN: Tim Ferriss v. Dave Allen

Sean Kearney — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:15:59 -0000

Great post and comments, Clay!

I have studied and worked to implement both systems and while I agree with those who recommend a blended approach, I am skeptical about how that would work in the long run.

While I have made incremental improvements to gain greater control at work using GTD, Ferriss's approach has inspired me to make BIG, qualitative changes.

The two big FHWW questions for me are: What would I do if I had to cut my work day by 90% or more? and If I had significantly more free time, what would I do with it? The second question has proven far more challenging than the first.

As a result, I realize that I don't want to get "things" done, I want to focus on what's most important, productive and fun. I don't want to be ready for "anything." I want to be ready for unexpected opportunities that I would have brushed off were I dutifully working through my to-do list.

Re: Productivity Guru SMACKDOWN: Tim Ferriss v. Dave Allen

Chris Elliott — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 07:20:18 -0000

I have read both and agree and disagree with points in both. Parts of GTD help me keep my life in order. Parts of 4HWW help me overcome my fear of experimentation and give me inspiration for escaping the cubicle nation.

With any "self-help" book, take what works for you and use it. Otherwise toss it to the side. There are no winners and no losers.

Re: Productivity Guru SMACKDOWN: Tim Ferriss v. Dave Allen

Rob — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 06:40:43 -0000

I think both systems, as does every system, provide some useful information, but you have to remember that these systems evolved by being implemented according to those guys' personal circumstances and experiences. They weren't devised and planned out first.

Therefore I think there is no single system that will fix everyone's situation and the information by itself is not enough.

As with everything the secret ingredient to either getting a grip of your life or living the life of your dreams is the one that nobody can teach or tell you. It's your own application of information you aquire. Some of it will work, some won't and you will only discover what works through action.

I believe then it is possible for any person who sets out on a path of creating their own lifestyle can provide, through sharing their experience something really valuable for others to follow, so that they find their own magic formula.

I really liked 4HWW. It has given me some good ideas.

Re: Productivity Guru SMACKDOWN: Tim Ferriss v. Dave Allen

Casual Fighter — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:40:42 -0000

CORRECTION: Time Ferris is NOT a "championship cage fighter". He never had any cage fights, professional OR amateur. In his book, Tim refers to "demolishing" three different cage fighting champions; however, in his blog, he explained that he was talking about friendly gym sparring sessions with those champions, not professional (or amateur) matches.

Re: Productivity Guru SMACKDOWN: Tim Ferriss v. Dave Allen

Atom McCree — Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:35:01 -0000

I use both systems GTD & 4-hour. I don't do things I don't want to and I am productive at the things I choose to. They can work mostly together. Two of my favorite books. GTD is too strict and 4 hour is too dreamy. There is a middle point where they are effective and efficient

Re: Productivity Guru SMACKDOWN: Tim Ferriss v. Dave Allen

Dragons Den — Wed, 29 Oct 2008 08:49:56 -0000

A very interesting comparison thank you. Though I am a Dave fan, your way too biased!

Re: Productivity Guru SMACKDOWN: Tim Ferriss v. Dave Allen

Grant Czerepak — Sat, 05 Jul 2008 02:22:57 -0000

I have had a chance since my earlier posts to study these authors and their ilk for some time. They have a tendency to list all their supposed accomplishments, but these accomplishments are primarily about spending the money they have earned selling their snake oil. They have not actually done anything to contribute to the betterment of society at all.

Challenging them leads to the Ad Hoc Hypothesis. That is, when you tell them their snake oil is snake oil they provide a rationalization that in some way either you or the conditions were not right for their snake oil to work.

There really is nothing to gain from these people. I recently read the work of the first century stoic Epictetus and its all there. In fact, he offers more nuggets of truth to pick from than the collection of these contemporary bullshitters offer all together.

As well, read the work of Marcus Aurelius. It turns out that the character maligned in "Gladiator" was not him, but his son, Lucius Verus. Marcus also makes a valuable contribution to stoic thought in his collected writings "Meditations".

Read the writings of truly great men who influenced the world. Know their thoughts and their aspirations and make them your own. Forget these irrelevant snake oil salesmen. They are just chaff.

If you want to be really great explore a discipline to its horizon where the next step is into uncharted territory. Challenge the boundaries that have been erected out of ignorance as opposed to knowledge. Then you will do something humanity will benefit from.

Re: Productivity Guru SMACKDOWN: Tim Ferriss v. Dave Allen

Matthew Cornell — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 22:59:25 -0000

In. Freakin. Credible. My hat, sir, is off to you. Touche.

Re: Productivity Guru SMACKDOWN: Tim Ferriss v. Dave Allen

Erik Lehmann — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 02:02:26 -0000

The 4HWW is an opportunity for lifestyle design by one's own choice. Mr. Ferriss himself, confessed in an interview that the 4 hour part of the title was somewhat arbitrary. The point is not to work for works sake. The point is to earn for life's sake.

I'm not sure if I believe that if we extend the metaphor exponentially, that there would be no one to actually do the work. We were once an industrial nation, and a service economy evolved into existence. Before that we were an agricultural society. Automation as a step was designed for this, but people were not liberated by this step, because they carried the sense of the protestant work ethic that reinforces diligence over balance and enjoyment for enjoyment's sake.

The point is, that doers are allowed to be thinkers and thinkers are allowed to choose what they do or who does it in a way that creates synergies and reduces inefficiencies without guilt. There is no need to fill the time saved by efficiency with more work. Play is OK and why we make money!

Re: Productivity Guru SMACKDOWN: Tim Ferriss v. Dave Allen

J Kenneth King — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 11:06:17 -0000

I've read GTD and just started whizzing through 4HWW yesterday.

This was a fun article, and the bias is obvious, but does none-the-less end up being somewhat balanced.

The only thing is that reading 4HWW is like reading an infomercial. Ferriss makes a lot of incredible claims and spends many paragraphs telling you how awesome he is. Egotism is infectious and he mixes it so well with energetic optimism that it's not surprising to find many people hooked on his ideas. But I can't help but keep my guard up as I read through the book. It sounds so much like a con-man's pitch.

We all just need to be critical when reviewing this kind of material. There's some good in GTD and 4HWW; we just need to cherry pick which ideas suit us best. In the end, neither is very valuable on it's own... it's doing that matters.

Re: Productivity Guru SMACKDOWN: Tim Ferriss v. Dave Allen

Grant Czerepak — Wed, 02 Apr 2008 01:51:28 -0000

You hit it on the head, Damon.

The 4DWW is only a book. GTD is only a book. 7HoHEP is only a book.

Heck. The Bible, the Koran, the Talmud, the Eightfold Path, the Tao Te Ching, the Vedas, Das Kapital ARE ONLY BOOKS!

Wow. Talk about a major epiphany.

And the older these books get the less relevant they are because they are static as are their advocates, while our understanding of the universe is dynamic and growing.

Become a Skeptic, it is a healthy state of mind and you'll find yourself able to live with the uncertainty of human knowledge.

Re: Productivity Guru SMACKDOWN: Tim Ferriss v. Dave Allen

Damon L. — Wed, 02 Apr 2008 01:21:53 -0000

Ummm... WTF Grant? Chill dude. It's a book, it's only a book.

I like dreaming that my life might be a certain way, but until that happens I have to make sure I pay the bills and provide for my family. Tim's book is inspiring to some degree, but really... If everyone in the world did what he is doing then we'd be a planet full of people wanting all the other people to do actual work. Craziness.

Re: Productivity Guru SMACKDOWN: Tim Ferriss v. Dave Allen

Paul Montwill | Sharingmatters — Sun, 23 Mar 2008 11:32:40 -0000

Grant, I couldn't have written it better! Indeed, "Siddhartha" is a great book. I also agree that we should build our own package of methods and techniques and find what is best for us. All these books about how to earn your first million or be successful should be ignored. They are just biographies. They say "My life is great. You should live the same way as I do and your life will be great too". Lies.

Re: Productivity Guru SMACKDOWN: Tim Ferriss v. Dave Allen

Grant Czerepak — Sat, 22 Mar 2008 00:26:29 -0000

I highly recommend everyone taking the time to read "Siddhartha" by Herman Hess. I will concede that every technique can teach us to discipline ourselves in different ways, however discipline does not necessarily bring us any closer to personal enlightenment. We may follow religion, self-help, personal development, organizational techniques, the sciences and on and on, but following the gurus who found their own enlightenment through these disciplines will not necessarily enlighten you because personal enlightenment, as Taoism says, cannot be articulated by them to you. You have to ultimately understand yourself and find your own discipline. Not only build with, but extend others work.

In my own blog I look at many disciplines for understanding systems. I read the works of many so called gurus and find more and more that they are all describing the same thing. I could take GTD and fit it in. I could take 4DWW and fit it in. What I describe is my best effort to articulate my understanding as I develop my personal discipline.

What I get tired of is guru's who are "certain" or "guarantee" that their system will work for you. Every single person in this world is as unique as everyone else. That means that every single person encounters a personal exception in life that no other person will experience. You have to find your own solution to that exception as no one else will understand your exception or be able to design a solution for you. But when you discipline yourself to handle what is already understood and then take the next step to handle your own exception by yourself you will achieve personal enlightenment. No one can give that to you and no one can take it away from you. You can share it with others, but ultimately you are a fraud if you claim certainty that your enlightenment will handle the unique exception in anyone else's life.

Re: Productivity Guru SMACKDOWN: Tim Ferriss v. Dave Allen

Brick Andrews — Fri, 21 Mar 2008 14:10:28 -0000

Grant, I admire your determination to not take anything on "faith", and that kind of objectivity is often missing, especially when we "want" to believe in something. For example, I might desperately want to believe in the 4-Hour Workweek because I want to have more fulfillment while working much less. However that bias does not make what Ferriss is saying "true" or "correct". I shook my head at a number of things he wrote about, but I think there was some good stuff to consider in there, just like in GTD.

To "reject the methods" outright seems rather harsh and extreme. There is nothing stopping you from testing the methods set out in both books yourself. I am sure you might find some things work for you and others do not. I don't think it is necessary for us to develop every single method, process and idea ourselves - in fact I find that rather inefficient. Surely we can make larger gains by building on the learning of others. For example, I accept the concept and application of addition and multiplication. I would hate to have to forgo their use until I developed number theory from scratch for myself!

Re: Productivity Guru SMACKDOWN: Tim Ferriss v. Dave Allen

Jared Goralnick — Thu, 20 Mar 2008 22:10:30 -0000

Clay, to echo everyone else here--great job on your blog--you're pretty darn entertaining and it's great to see you contributing so well to this productivity space. Now onto the meat:

I think there is a place for both systems, but it does require a lot of trimming...of both. The main lesson from GTD for me was to get the stuff out of my head and into a system I trust

I think that that part was even a big part of Tim's workflow. For instance, he spent a few days trying to come up with his 80/20 or 95/5 in terms of what he wanted in his life. To do that he had to do some sort of mind-dump, figure out how he was spending his time, determine his responsibilities, etc. Then he could act upon it. The steps he took next were very different than David's (Tim was ELIMINATE AUTOMATE OUTSOURCE as opposed to PROCESS ACT REVIEW), but they required getting things out into the open. And, of course, in the process of eliminating, automating, and outsourcing, you still have to process stuff, act on it, and check up on it. GTD helps to get organized--to help you focus on the task at hand ("mind like water"). Tim is a natural, probably a genius, when it comes to discipline. Most people need a system to have that focus and clarity of what to do next. That's where GTD plays a role.

Then of course there's the 4HWW. And I readily agree with you that finding ways to do what's the best and most exciting use of your time is what it's all about. Tim offers such great, tangible advice for that, and plenty of reasoning for why.

So, I'll try not to go on and on here, I'm just suggesting that there's a need for some sort of organization and GTD can help with that. The 4HWW was so impactful for me because I had a system in place. Putting the two together has made my days so much more productive with a lot more time.

Cheers.