project mojave blog - Latest Comments in On Eating New Contexts for Breakfast and The Price of Radical Growth

Re: On Eating New Contexts for Breakfast and The Price of Radical Growth

Joe Dakroub — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 07:52:37 -0000

I came across you blog via Zen Habits. This post resonates with me as it describes everything I have gone through in the past 2 years.

After my mother took her own life, I felt as if my life needed a radical change. Initially, I thought that meant changing my job or going on vacation or doing something "crazy". I was fired up for the first time in ages. However, "real life" took over and I didn't make any such changes...I stagnated.

It wasn't until I went to therapy for grief a year later that my life began to change, unbeknownst to myself. In time, I grew confident of myself as a person and in my own beliefs. As more time past, I knew that this was the radical change. These changes led to the profound depression, heavy drinking, dissatisfaction with my job, the divorce I am now going through, the brief affair I had with someone I truly love, and my own suicide attempt.

After some time in the hospital, I learned about true perspective. My world view changed. I came to the realization that we are all being "conditioned" to conform, that if you don't define "success" as having all the material things in your life, the high-paying job, the wife, the kids, the house, the "American Dream", that you are not a grown up, you are a failure in the eyes of the world. Who's world? Not mine. I found that my values did not align with the world's and that for the first time in my life, I was OK with that. I found that I could live by my values and shrug those that I were not mine. That is not to say that I do whatever I want, but I finally feel that I have latitude and the ability to make "real" change, for me.

Some of the ideas on this blog remind me of Ayn Rand, but less rigid. I am actually just finishing her book "Atlas Shrugged", which is my second time through. Very inspirational reading.

Thanks for the posting and this blog. I have added to my list of daily reading!

Re: On Eating New Contexts for Breakfast and The Price of Radical Growth

c0de — Sun, 29 Jun 2008 08:35:54 -0000

Something is left undefined by this post, and this is the core of the main argument for radical growth: The Purpose.

The question of whether or not the price is worth it or not depends solely on the Purpose of growth. Why do you want to grow? If your simply bored and and want stimulation, then risking your relationships and career for the sake of rejuvenation is probably not called for. In that case, it is a bigger struggle for you to hold on to what you have and preserve those things on which depend the happiness of more people then just yourself.

However, radical growth sometimes has to take place not by choice, but as a consequence of some form of duty. It could be a spiritual calling, or an obligation of some sort. If this purpose forces you to make a choice, a change in the radical direction. Then I think that risking everything is the only right thing to do.

You just have to know the difference between the two situations.

Re: On Eating New Contexts for Breakfast and The Price of Radical Growth

Visculent — Sun, 04 May 2008 08:24:08 -0000

This type of "Radical Growth", I feel, gives a potential for a refinement of authentic response-ability. You can always chose again. Sometimes those choices weigh heavy from outside perspectives. The way of Radical Growth often requires a bit of self sacrifice and the ability to really "let go" of the story to make a new one. It's richly dynamic and omni-directional at times. Where comes radical growth, greater self clarity should follow.

Re: On Eating New Contexts for Breakfast and The Price of Radical Growth

JEMi | Tips for Life, Love, Yo — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 16:39:10 -0000

I applaud you on this. Certain things you said are so true and powerful.

"Growth has Both VELOCITY AND DIRECTION"

Thinking back to past relationships (yes, I had one that did suffer and end from my desire to grow), I can attest to your comment about some relationships not surviving this kind of thing. Not only that, it can scary as hell - for me at least.

And yet, I jump on that bandwagon and do it anyway. I would say that I am in a unique position that I have found a reason to be greatful for. Unattached, I am exploring and learning a hell of a lot about myself.

Great post dude

Re: On Eating New Contexts for Breakfast and The Price of Radical Growth

Tom Stine — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 13:45:47 -0000

Hey Clay, I was gone last week and missed this post. Thanks! I've enjoyed getting to know you, too.

Re: On Eating New Contexts for Breakfast and The Price of Radical Growth

Jared Goralnick — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:32:29 -0000

It's the concomitant pain and loss that I (and I'm guessing most others) fear the most as the cost of serious growth. Thanks for helping to put this issue into perspective.

Re: On Eating New Contexts for Breakfast and The Price of Radical Growth

Brett McKay — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 23:52:54 -0000

Thanks for the link! And great post. We should always be seeking, always improving. And, yep, sometimes growth hurt, but when you have to make sacrifices for something, it makes it all the more worth it.

Re: On Eating New Contexts for Breakfast and The Price of Radical Growth

Jenny — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 22:28:15 -0000

Clay,

Everything happens for a reason! I believe I decided to go to your blog tonight because I was meant to read this post! You gave me some very good insight on things that have happened to me in the last few years and was not aware of happening! I believe that I have grown alot in just the last 2 1/2 years and have had to deal with the whole growing out of relationships pahse of it. I feel I have alienated friends and contacts for a time, and it was necessary for me to do that in order to learn and grow. Thank you for putting that a little more in perspective for me!

Re: On Eating New Contexts for Breakfast and The Price of Radical Growth

Clay Collins — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:48:32 -0000

@Sean: You make excellent points. Thanks for taking the time to explain what you did. We should have an offline phone conversation about where we've been in the last 15 years :-). Looks like you're happily married and a dad a couple (a few?) times over. Awesome.

Re: On Eating New Contexts for Breakfast and The Price of Radical Growth

Sean M. Cox — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:24:54 -0000

@Clay - Yes, it's been a while. I was glad to find you here and glad to see that you are doing so well.

I think I agree completely with the points you make. I was simply trying to elucidate Stephen's comments. I think he was really only submitting a case study of his life with some follow-up thoughts; giving an example of some experiences that many perceive to be good growing experiences, but which actually turned out to be not worth it.

You stated that "The Price of Radical Growth is Sometimes NOT Worth It" and this begs the question, "how can I tell?"

I think, in the end, Stephen addressed that issue a bit.

"I would submit that Radical Growth is worth it, if you build a plan to profit by it." (Stephen)

I like that. Growth, even real positive growth, needs to be put into a context. One needs to "plan", or put growth within a larger context, perhaps even the ever-elusive "big picture", and if you can do that, and it still looks positive, then it's worth it.

I don't think growth could even be well defined without a context, but people often have ideas about what they want and what they should do, and these ideas are often only consider from within a very limited context. (Perhaps that's why micro-economies work.) How does this experience affect me now with my immediate goals? 1 year from now with my short term goals? 10 years from now? When I'm dead? (It makes the definition of growth a bit tricky, because it depends so much on perspective.)

In any case, you wrote a very good piece. It gives much food for thought. Better yet it feeds us a chance to consider the rules that we live by. To err is human. To introspect is human as well... or at least should be.

Re: On Eating New Contexts for Breakfast and The Price of Radical Growth

Jonathan from JonathanMead.com — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:03:55 -0000

That picture is scary.

That's all I have to say.

Re: On Eating New Contexts for Breakfast and The Price of Radical Growth

Clay Collins — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:05:30 -0000

@Stephen: Oh I see where we have the difference of opinion. I view growth as being a positive thing. I've defined growth that way. I think your definition of the world "growth" is more akin to the word "learning." You can learn to manipulate women, but in my view that isn't growth. Our country can learn to fight, stage, and engage in war, without growing from the experience. (OK, that last one was a friendly inside joke).

In terms of what Sean said about . . .

Re: On Eating New Contexts for Breakfast and The Price of Radical Growth

Wendi Kelly — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:11:41 -0000

Clay,

You have a knack of writing things in such a way that I sometimes feel you have been over here reading my journals for the past 30 years.

I have lived that life you just described and I have paid a lot of the price you talked about as well. Including the divorces. And yes...that is plural.

The bag of Life Lessons that I have picked up along the way of the many jobs, many adventures and the many people I have met along the way has been pricelss. I wouldn't trade this education in the school of life for any PhD out there.
So here is my free advice...maybe it will keep you from some cut glass in your bare feet while you are out walking on life's winding road. Go anywhere, explore anything, drink in all that life has to offer. But first,set your moral compass and your guiding core values so that you always know which way is home. And, as long as you know WHO you are, it doesn't matter what else you are learning, and you CAN meet a person who shares your CORE values. It's the partnership of core values that turns out to be the secret of longest lasting relationships that survive anything.

Good luck on Life's journey.

Re: On Eating New Contexts for Breakfast and The Price of Radical Growth

@Stephen | Productivity in Con — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 06:15:59 -0000

Hi again, Clay. Sean has hit the nail on the head, "Moving around a lot and following one

Re: On Eating New Contexts for Breakfast and The Price of Radical Growth

Clay Collins — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:30:16 -0000

@Sean: Nice seeing you here. Long time, no talk.

In regards to this...

--------
You expressed this idea yourself in describing some of the growth experiences as being

Re: On Eating New Contexts for Breakfast and The Price of Radical Growth

Sean M. Cox — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:20:32 -0000

Perhaps what Stephen is expressing is the dilemma between a short-sighted quick growth, and a long-term growth plan.

Moving around a lot and following one's whims from experience to experience could very easily be a kind of caffeine of life, giving us the feeling of zipping forward now, but dragging us down later, and, if abused, causing some irreparable damage.

You expressed this idea yourself in describing some of the growth experiences as being "not worth it". If one profits from them, then how could they be not worth it? Because there is another, better, growth, that is being missed out on.

Worse, some experiences can be more of a hallucinogen, giving us the simulated feeling of moving forward while our life is really sliding back. Television and video-gaming come to mind as addictive behaviors that have this kind of effect, and in each of those cases one has a simulated environment that has provided you with synthetic goals to accomplish that very often have no value in the real world. It's a micro-economy where the exchanges very often have no relevance in real life and sometimes are even negatively affect us. (Of course, such economies can also, at times, be good for us.)

Sometimes the experiences we seek in life are sought not because they're really good for us, but because we've gotten enmeshed in some micro-economy that we only need because we think we need it... and then we have Quitting Things and Flakiness all over again.

Re: On Eating New Contexts for Breakfast and The Price of Radical Growth

Clay Collins — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 00:14:58 -0000

@Mark: That's a beautiful story and it makes lots of sense. Thank you for sharing.

@Stephen: I'm afraid I don't understand. You're saying that if you plan to profit from radical growth then it wont be mistaken for selfishness and narcissism? You obviously don't mean profit (just) in the monetary sense. But how do you grow and not profit from it? In my view, if you've grown, then you've profited. Growth is its own end. It is sufficient unto itself. There's no profited or not profited from personal growth as far as I can tell.

Re: On Eating New Contexts for Breakfast and The Price of Radical Growth

Mark Krusen — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 23:38:36 -0000

Clay you have said it so well once again. However on one point I have to disagree if someone went on to cover it in the comments I apologize. The disagreement is in growing apart in a marriage. I feel that if you allow your mate to grow at their pace and you are growing at your pace,that as long as you don't quit you can meet in the middle.

Like that country song says. "You start walking your way, I'll start walking mine. We'll meet in the middle under that old Georgia Pine." That has been so true in my 2nd marriage. My wife and I are growing old together but we are on different paths. It's when we meet back under that pine tree that the good times roll. I hope this makes some sense to someone. It did to me as I typed it.

Re: On Eating New Contexts for Breakfast and The Price of Radical Growth

@Stephen | Productivity in Con — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 20:15:19 -0000

Well now. I am a little late to the party, but I'd like to get my $0.02 in.

Putting down roots doesn't always equal stagnation. Trying new things all the time does not always lead to growth. From '94 to '99 I moved all over the place (Illinois to New Orleans to Connecticut) and had a bunch of short-term "relationships". My career was moving rapidly, but as a person I was rotting from the inside.

Then I spent 5 years in one place with one woman, and grew like crazy! The rot stopped and I learned to, ah, tell the difference between sex and intimacy. Among other things.

This part:"All growth propels the grower in some direction, even if the destination (if there is one) is far from clear. But since we can

Re: On Eating New Contexts for Breakfast and The Price of Radical Growth

Coach Melissa Pierce — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 19:05:39 -0000

Thanks for posting in your blog...Its the highlight of my day.

@monk, oops, my mistake, it should've read "it's amazing that a fucking hot stud genius guy like Clay could come along..."

Re: On Eating New Contexts for Breakfast and The Price of Radical Growth

Kelly@SHE-POWER — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:23:22 -0000

Ckay

Aw shucks.... *blushing furiously*... thanks for highlighting my late night ramblings in your post. I'm just glad they made some kind of sense. You never can tell at 1am. I'm glad you found some wisdom in there. Now will someone please tell my husband to accept the truth - not only am I wise, I AM ALWAYS RIGHT!

And Monk, you crack me up. I think muesli went up my nose...

Kelly

Re: On Eating New Contexts for Breakfast and The Price of Radical Growth

G.Davis — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 17:30:07 -0000

Okay, so here's my, "It's all relative, and moderation is the key" reply:
Radical growth is only radical relative to what YOU are comfortable with. I think that in the end, life is all about contributing to happiness and doing more good than bad. By, "contributing to happiness" I am refering simply to being happy yourself, thus contributing to the overall happiness of the world. If you are pressuring yourself into radically growing, then it's likely that strife will result. If, however, your growth is comfortably fast, then you'll probably be quite happy. Things get messy when there's this grinding pressure to always advance. When we are "in the zone" of personal growth, synchronicities occur and we tend to get where we want to go in the most efficient manner.

Re: On Eating New Contexts for Breakfast and The Price of Radical Growth

Elizabeth — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 14:00:09 -0000

Wow, what a great post. I particularly like the challenge to permanence - I feel like every comment I've ever received about why some choice is a "bad decision" has its roots in that assumption. I think that having parts of your life that are stable, like certain friendships or certain beliefs, can make radical growth less scary and overwhelming. But that being said, you should choose what you need to be stable rather than go along with what society rewards.

Re: On Eating New Contexts for Breakfast and The Price of Radical Growth

Guest — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:55:29 -0000

@Coach Melissa:

Re: On Eating New Contexts for Breakfast and The Price of Radical Growth

Vered - MomGrind — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 12:43:55 -0000

But you said it so well: "The are priorities that I will always put before such growth because sometimes rapid growth just isn